SA Classic car market

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johan wepener
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Re: SA Classic car market

Post by johan wepener » Fri 29 Apr 2016, 10:47

I agree with Indy.

Prices of old cars are very high. And believe me, they do indeed frequently sell at huge inflated

prices.

The reason for this is not simplistic. More people become aware of the existance of old

cars ( TV and certain popular programs) BUT the most important I think is that

the oldies in original condition are drying up. Every little town and farm in the RSA

have been searched for that 40 or 50 year old spotless car. The less it is available, the

higher the price.

For younger people my advice would be to identify a newish model that you think will become

popular over time. e.g. Sierra and Sapphire , find the immaculate example at a reasonbale price

and store it,polish it,pamper it for twenty years and you will have a great investment in your garage

or store. It is maybe allready to late but aformentioned cars can still be found in the platteland

in immacualte condition. O yes, and do not underestimate the good old Datsun/Nissan 1400 bakkie---that

kanniedood will become collectable. The are also other examples though.

In my view the prices of oldies in general are inflated into a bubble. The best scenario

is that their prices will stabalise at this levels and stay there for a long time to come.

Johan
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IndianaJones
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Re: SA Classic car market

Post by IndianaJones » Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:12

You make an excellent point, oom Johan

I don’t believe the cost of fixing a car should factor through to the trade price, if your 5 year old Audi blew its’ engine, and it you had to replace it at a cost of R50000, it could add some value, but it doesn’t add R50000 to the value of the car. It does however make it slightly more desirable, since it has a new engine, and thus an easier sell. Depending off course whom did the work, and often times a warranty is included, unlike the case with classic cars. All cars need maintenance, it can not factor through to the value completely, it should rather be included in the running costs of the car, but yes, a well maintained car is more desirable.

Restoration could account for a higher asking price, as most restoration parts have to be imported, and quality labour is expensive, it is again very much a case of the quality of the work that was put in. I suspect there are a lot of individuals, intrigued by restored classics, since they can not perform the restoration themselves, and believe a restored car will have the reliability of a new car, or so we hope.

Still I believe, like is the case in other markets, an original, unmolested, in good condition, one/two owner car with known maintenance history will command a higher asking price than a restored car.
The question begs, by how much?

But on average, good maintained/restored/unmolested advertised classic cars I see, are a minority, still asking prices on average cars are high…

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pietpetoors
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Re: SA Classic car market

Post by pietpetoors » Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:38

will become popular over time. e.g. Sierra and Sapphire
That is something I always wonder and only time will tell, will these modern mass production plastic cars one day become such classics as the older models?
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Mater
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Re: SA Classic car market

Post by Mater » Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:19

I personally think the whole world is tired of mass produced plastic items. They perceive good old steel bumpers and solid wood furniture are better. Todays cars could be more reliable, but in Africa, if your new car's computer-box or DSG gearbox goes, you walk!! or pay for what the mechanic "tell you" is the problem. If you are one of the older generation, you know how to fix a old engine/car, because you had to, and could fix it yourself. I love my new car, but the passion it still there to struggle with the old, and get my hands dirty. Normally people wants to get their first car back, the one they had to sell, and regain their youth. Sometimes they buy with their harts not heads. Regards :lol:

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ZA Perana
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Re: SA Classic car market

Post by ZA Perana » Fri 29 Apr 2016, 14:18

A very interesting topic!

My feeling is people in SA are simply pricing classic cars to some extent based on their UK price, this is especially true of Italian exotics such as Ferrari's, the price of which seem to increase at a massive rate.

The bottom line is the only time prices will come down is when people stop paying these silly prices, or as I suspect many classics are bought on some form of credit (access bond) the prices will fall if there is a major market move or interests continue to climb at a more rapid rate.

Its tough to look at a late 80s C4 Vette and see R300k there. I for one would pay R150k for one max purely based on the scarcity of spares and the fact that in terms of the Vettes the early C4's just aren't desirable.

When I see Chargers sitting at R1.2mil and not selling, Mustangs at R1mil and not selling its probably an indication that values are maxed out on those cars.

Collectors are also getting more discerning as to what they will buy.

Where does this leave cars like Chev Lumina's? Are they going to go up or will the lack of parts scare the market?
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First V8
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Re: SA Classic car market

Post by First V8 » Fri 29 Apr 2016, 18:41

I have been assessing older (50 and 60's ) SA /European model cars lately . Hillman , Volvo , Lancia , Renault , DKW , Alfa and of course Ford MK1 & 2's. The prices are not that ridiculously high compared to prices that these cars sell for overseas . If you add finders fees and shipping the prices are still about 30 to 50 % lower depending on make and model . The Escort and Mini on the other hand is a different issue . The sellers know they are going to exported and are pricing them at what they sell for in the UK and unfortunately lose out to locals then buying them and do not even get overseas buyers interested . Clearing them here and shipping puts them out of reach of both . I looked at a 70's 2 door MK2 no motor or gearbox cracked front screen bad body and wiring all ripped out and non standard dash instruments for R25K and 3 years back license to be paid . Well i walked away and so did everyone else . The car is still there .
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ZA Perana
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Re: SA Classic car market

Post by ZA Perana » Sat 30 Apr 2016, 15:05

First V8 wrote:I have been assessing older (50 and 60's ) SA /European model cars lately . Hillman , Volvo , Lancia , Renault , DKW , Alfa and of course Ford MK1 & 2's. The prices are not that ridiculously high compared to prices that these cars sell for overseas . If you add finders fees and shipping the prices are still about 30 to 50 % lower depending on make and model . The Escort and Mini on the other hand is a different issue . The sellers know they are going to exported and are pricing them at what they sell for in the UK and unfortunately lose out to locals then buying them and do not even get overseas buyers interested . Clearing them here and shipping puts them out of reach of both . I looked at a 70's 2 door MK2 no motor or gearbox cracked front screen bad body and wiring all ripped out and non standard dash instruments for R25K and 3 years back license to be paid . Well i walked away and so did everyone else . The car is still there .
A few years ago I made a promise to Tiaan (the forum owner) :D to not get involved in any export related discussions but I will say this, I frown heavily on those involved in the mass export of classic cars in SA.

Point being you cannot compare overseas prices because the average salary is far higher than it is in SA.
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IndianaJones
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Re: SA Classic car market

Post by IndianaJones » Wed 18 May 2016, 19:19

ZA Perana wrote:My feeling is people in SA are simply pricing classic cars to some extent based on their UK price...
If this is true, can we at least establish here on the forum, what exactly it costs to export a car? All costs involved, shipping, taxes, customs, finders fees, documentation, etc?
Then we can at least be in a position, to make a valid and viable counter offer, and perhaps keep a car here.
pietpetoors wrote:
will become popular over time. e.g. Sierra and Sapphire
That is something I always wonder and only time will tell, will these modern mass production plastic cars one day become such classics as the older models?
I think they are climbing, or it's just a matter of time before people that grew up with a XR6 Sierra, are at a age where they have some disposable income, and it helps that a Cosworth or XR8 are now R150k plus cars...
ZA Perana wrote:Where does this leave cars like Chev Lumina's? Are they going to go up or will the lack of parts scare the market?
Where have you seen a cheap Lumina lately? It's virtually impossible to find one in good nick, under R150k, if you find one please let me know, sub-R150 and it's in tatty condition and you better run away. Whenever a good one pops up for less, it's sold within a day.
Import parts coupled with the exchange rate is a concern, but a Lumina is the modern hot rod, and it's popularity will continue, even just to rob it of it's LSx.

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ZA Perana
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Re: SA Classic car market

Post by ZA Perana » Thu 19 May 2016, 08:36

IndianaJones wrote:
ZA Perana wrote:My feeling is people in SA are simply pricing classic cars to some extent based on their UK price...
If this is true, can we at least establish here on the forum, what exactly it costs to export a car? All costs involved, shipping, taxes, customs, finders fees, documentation, etc?
Then we can at least be in a position, to make a valid and viable counter offer, and perhaps keep a car here.
pietpetoors wrote:
will become popular over time. e.g. Sierra and Sapphire
That is something I always wonder and only time will tell, will these modern mass production plastic cars one day become such classics as the older models?
I think they are climbing, or it's just a matter of time before people that grew up with a XR6 Sierra, are at a age where they have some disposable income, and it helps that a Cosworth or XR8 are now R150k plus cars...
ZA Perana wrote:Where does this leave cars like Chev Lumina's? Are they going to go up or will the lack of parts scare the market?
Where have you seen a cheap Lumina lately? It's virtually impossible to find one in good nick, under R150k, if you find one please let me know, sub-R150 and it's in tatty condition and you better run away. Whenever a good one pops up for less, it's sold within a day.
Import parts coupled with the exchange rate is a concern, but a Lumina is the modern hot rod, and it's popularity will continue, even just to rob it of it's LSx.
There are a few reasonably tidy Lumina's below R150k but you do need to know what to look.

Its a strange market at the moment in the sense some classics are sitting while other are fetching seemingly impossible money.
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Buckaroo
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Re: SA Classic car market

Post by Buckaroo » Thu 19 May 2016, 09:06

There is no mystery here. for example E type prices have gone ballistic overseas in the last few years as supply and demand interact and more people want to own less available cars. The Ferrari Daytona has been ballistic for many years for the same reason. If I owned one of those cars here there is no way that I would ever sell it for a 10th of its real value in dollars because I feel sorry for my countrymen and our Rand.
But things also work in reverse - I collect historic motorcycles - some I own I have bought here for a small percentage of their international value - same story - they are not yet perceived here as being rare/desirable etc and there are few collectors like me competing for them. Supply and demand. Same for certain cars like Merc 560 SEC I saw an article about in an overseas magazine - there are cars for sale here at less than half what you would pay in the UK.
As for restorations to desirable classics - we keep an accurate record of man hours and you easily go beyond 1500 man hours - cost that out at whatever rate you think is market related - and that is before you add in the cost of imported spares. Factor in that the NRCS is making it virtually impossible to import and register classic collectors item cars so what is here is it - you want a Mustang from the pool available in SA along with a number of others who want the same thing - prices rocket. It's the same principle as at an auction and no mystery - supply and demand nothing more.
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