This one's for you Barry......

[Garage]

KSF - I take your point and respect your opinion. But I don't agree.

I'm all for the idea of working to your ability, means and taste. But if you are suggesting that anything goes based on this, you are dead wrong.
Taste considerations aside - I don't expect all to like what I like, but I don't have to like everyone else's taste either:I regularly see examples of very poorly executed work - often this just lets down the whole package, but far more worryingly some of what I see is downright dangerous. Period.
If you are planning on putting something on the road with the general public, you have a responsibility to ensure that it is fit for the purpose.
I do (and will continue to) get quite vocal when guys doing this are coming from the camp of 'I've been doing this for years, don't try to tell me there could be a better way.
This isn't just my dreamed up opinions - I have spoken to a couple of guys overseas who deal first hand with cars exported from SA, and there is quite a strong notion that quality is not great in general. Are you saying that is ok, and we shouldn't be looking to raise our game?

Fact is, in a challenge between some guy's dodgy ideas/workmanship and physics, physics will win - EVERY TIME...... (witness Johann's thread on the wheel that parted ways with the car....)
If anyone thinks that these considerations somehow don't apply to them, dream on...

I am always open to learning, and am the first to admit that I don't know all that much. The fact is that standards on many many builds are quite low. I find the idea that we should just accept everything and never try to improve ourselves, our knowledge and abilities worrying in the extreme. If anyone is so offended by the notion that maybe they don't know everything, I'd suggest they need to do some serious introspection.

[Garage]

No, stance is wrong. The front fender should touch the wheel's lip the same way the back does, or vice versa. Otherwise the back-end will seem "heavy"

I disagree. Based on the substantial difference in heights of both arches, what you are proposing would require either bodywork mods or far too much rake.
It might be resolved by different sized rims, but I don't believe that would be right on this truck.
Take a look around at cars on the road and you will probably observe that very often the rear arch is lower than the front, and this is done intentionally by the designers...

[KSF]

But if you are suggesting that anything goes based on this, you are dead wrong.

Absolutely not! I am suggesting that argument based on aesthetics is wrong and to shoot a persons work down based on that is nonsense. Aesthetics is just too highly subjective, based on personal taste and opinion. Too much of form over function. One man's "stance" is another man's "sh!t" as one of the pics on this forum so amply demonstrated.

I hear you about workmanship and have seen plenty examples myself. It has also made me lose respect for large percentages of the so called "professionals", guys in the game who either don't know their asses from a hole in the ground or are deliberately and knowingly shovelling sh!t out the door, neither of which are acceptable.

But in defence of SA'ers, it is by no means limited to the local suppliers. I can (as I am sure you can) make quite a list of imported items, components and complete vehicles that had shocking levels of poor workmanship. And some from "big name" companies, in one case even from a very well known brand of vehicle's parent company to the SA company.

I cannot fully understand or explain that at any level. Pride in workmanship is largely scoffed at in favor of pushing to make a quick buck in the modern world. It almost seems like actually going the extra mile is sneered at and regarded as a bit dumb and naive. I know you did not say it, but it has certainly got nothing to do with "dutchman-element". It is also certainly not to be tied in with an income level or size of company etc, it is rife and everywhere.

Here is just one true story, perhaps it gives one some idea. In SA some 30 odd years ago, there was not much by way of choice for exhaust headers. Banana branches. And those available as over the counter was largely of a cosmetic nature (the guys involved back then will forgive me and understand what I mean). Tube diameter, length and shape was dictated by form over function and also very much ease of installation. It meant that very little actuall R&D went into them, so all that had to be recovered was manufacturing cost, distribution and installation.

Along came Dr Herman Cowley and decided to up this game a bit. He delved into the science and physics behind tuned headers, got to understand it very well and started building systems to properly work with, enhance and optimize the engine performance. It came at a cost, he had R&D cost to recover, the systems were more difficult to make (because of shape) and took more time to install. So, he had to sell them for more than the opposition sold theirs.

Now you (Garage) and me may understand what the Cowley systems were about and be happy to pay the extra for the real benefits. Not so much the average consumer though and ultimately they could not stay in bussiness due to low sales. Yes, the name is still around, but the systems sold today have gone back to being largely cosmetic.

[Heavy D2]

"Dutchman" ......realy ?

[KSF]

I thought of something to add, perhaps a bit closer to what you guys were talking about before we interrupted. It serves to further illustrate the point of my interruption too.

Some years ago I watched a car show, migth have been one of the Overhaulin's episodes. Foose and his team. Now Chip has talent, no doubt. He has the ability to visualize and then also put his vision on paper very well. His style is not everyone's cup of tea for sure, personally I like his body styling (limited as the mods and fabrication generally are) but not so much his wheels or the diameters he picks. It is aesthetics again though.

But in this specific episode the car in question got the usual Hotchkiss suspension, Baer brakes etc bolt-on makeover of its mechanicals. This one has to presume is a carefully worked out combination to get suspension and steering geometry correct and use matched and optimized spring and damper sets.

Chip did not like the car's 'stance'. So him and his team hacked away at these selected coil springs with a cutting torch untill the car had the 'stance' they wanted. No regard at all for what happened to the springrate, suspension travel, metal proporties of the spring, the damper that is still intended for a softer and longer spring.

What do you make of that then? Money no object here, all the available skills and knowledge at hand and available. This show also went through editing and all, was then broadcast the whole world over. Not a dutchmen element in sight (yes shoedoos, I will not let go of that).

[gordini]

New topic....Dutchmen

[Garage]

I respect everything you've said KSF - well put!

I do feel that aesthetics, although very subjective, is also something that is part science, part interpretation.
There are clear 'rules' of good design, and giving them attention will benefit most 'builds'. Employing them cannot hurt, and may save a perfectly good car from being let down by one or two out-of-kilter choices.
I also believe that rules are often made to be broken - but doing so to good effect requires and understanding and respect of them to begin with.....

[KSF]

Garage,

Thanks for the discussion, your last post also opened up scope for quite an interesting debate about how and why the average acceptable 'stance' and general aesthetics came about. Perhaps we can pick that up another place, another time?


For me personally what remains outstanding is for shoedoos to step up and acknowledge that this careless and perhaps thoughtless remark of his caused a great deal of unhappiness and controversy in this usually very happy and jovial group of guys.

its called the dutchman element.....fat tackies, jag suspension and fancy knic-knac add-ons...one man's trash is another man's treasure though....

shoedoos, it matters very little whether or not you meant to cause offense. The fact is you did and it has been made abundantly clear to you. It is time for you to step up, figuratively raise a hand and say "Sorry guys, I did not mean to offend."

Of course if you really meant to offend, then so be it. If the moderators dont see fit to act in this case (and it seems they don't), then I guess one has to draw your own conclusions.

[68barracuda]

its called the dutchman element.....fat tackies, jag suspension and fancy knic-knac add-ons...one man's trash is another man's treasure though....

Ne?

[shoedoos]

Another one for you Barry....nobody else look for fear you get offended...