CHEV 3800 GT

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Johann65
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Re: CHEV 3800 GT

Post by Johann65 » Wed 02 Mar 2011, 12:33

Good Morning 993,
Seem to have lost the first message.

Great to read the nostalgia after 1966. Just to drop some names from Product Engineering;
Henry Smith, Bruce Forsdyk, Werner Eubel, Peter Aston, John Shepherd, and of course Gordon Briggs who worked at Motherwell.

The Dyno you mention is it the one at Product Engineering in Uitenhage Road? I recall the tests going on while I was working next door on the Fadometer. Your report brings back a lot of memories!! :D
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Ah! Yes I remember it well! (Only GM's!)
1966 Opel Rekord L CLASSIC SEDAN Current Project

VMX
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Re: CHEV 3800 GT

Post by VMX » Wed 02 Mar 2011, 12:39

Fantastic 993 this confirms my lifelong argument about life beyond the Can Am, there was more so much more that nobody really cares to know about. This is the most important information I've read about in years as it all ties up and makes perfect sense.

Now you have 2 scholars in class :lol: we hope to complete the chapter before the weekend ! :lol: :twisted: :lol:

VMX
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Re: CHEV 3800 GT

Post by VMX » Wed 02 Mar 2011, 12:48

2 Scholars with 2 mentors now, this no doubt less interest to the General's sceptics. If this intimate detail you are posting which to me each word is of importance "spam" on the forum we could chat via email seeing we're all in different locations. I mean the detail stuff which there is plenty more we could pass around. If this was about fast Fairlanes I may have felt the same as maybe some of the Ford guys think of this wonderfull piece of interesting General Motors History.

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Re: CHEV 3800 GT

Post by Johann65 » Wed 02 Mar 2011, 13:31

Recall the Box Kadette with the 2.5l engine that was loaned out. Scared the SH** out of me through the Blaaukrans pass about 1965???
Wish I had more involvement at the time. My involvement was limited to working with trim and specifications on "Operation Mayflower".
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Ah! Yes I remember it well! (Only GM's!)
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993 Kadett
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Re: CHEV 3800 GT

Post by 993 Kadett » Wed 02 Mar 2011, 16:50

Hello Guys brings joy to me that you can identify with what is written. Johann those names bring back wonderful memories, most of the chaps you mention real gentlemen, & yes the Dyno is the one at Prod Engineering. We had three, a GE motor Dyno which doubled as a driver we could run friction HP tests as well. A Schenk eddy current and Hennan & Froud water Brake for durabilty testing.
A buddy of mine asked me recently as well as a comment from John as to why I don't just write a book, I have incidentally hours of written stuff I have kept in cotton wool over the years to try to keep the mind sharp to do just that. I went out to find out what was involved some time ago and just the thought of the process makes me pixxed. The thought of publishers and other hangers on making money out of memoirs makes me sad, just what the blazes do they really do to deserve anything more than a fraction, they just want to control the process.... but thats not what got me, the disinterest did. I decided to share what I know with people that have the passion and I dont really care about the money, no publisher will benefit unduly from anything I have experienced. Maybe I'll start a blog... but being amongst guys like you and being able to contribute and somehow keep the history together even if it is a bit flawed from time to time, is far more important. While I'm ranting, I am also hugely dissappointed with the quality of technical reporting on historics in all publications. I read a report on Y151 the other day and they missed the whole point of the car and the massive engineering task the thing was. If they keep going at this rate I'll offer to do the Ford job for them too even with my limited knowledge of that four letter word.. Enough... before I get carried away, I was going to send this today prior to the delightful responses:

Basic driveline spec of the GT using a 3.23 Final drive Speeds @ 6000rpm

1st 2.99 :1 74 km/h
2nd 1.76: 1 125 km/h
3rd 1.30: 1 170km/h
4th 1:1 220 km/h
5th 0.83:1 231km/h @ 5200 R.min

Tried a 3.5:1 Final drive and it brought the 0-100 time down by 0.3 sec simply by masking the 1-2 gap a little better but for proper driving the 3.23 was a great final spec with the engine feeling relaxed in 5th. Besides, the engine produced max power at just 5200 exactly at its max speed of 231. Max speed with the 3.5 was 228 @ 5600 which I thought was too busy.

What was the proper engine power? probably around 225 real horsepower. But please don’t get me onto the subject of horsepower because all I will say is that in my entire career I have never seen a power claim of any sort matched on a Dyno. During the period 1969 thru 1972 and prior to my move to engineering I was responsible for the service station rolling road (this because I was the only guy who showed interest, not because I was Einstein) I learnt a helluva lot about BS power figures during that time and spent a lot of time running opposition product. If I published what I found I would probably have been lynched and very nearly was when I published my findings internally, the guys in engineering coming close to a collective heart attack.

Give you an Idea, the little 1160cc Kadett I spoke of in earlier posts last month, produced a genuine 110bhp at 7400-7700 Rpm at that time. With Lionel Rowe in the car in Oudthoorn driving for the E. cape and Border championship in 1974**, he literally obliterated the two 1293 Works Cooper S’s From Cape Town driven by Rodney Goldberg and if I remember correctly the other car was driven by Tommy Gash. Even down the straight the Kadett gave those two cars a hiding and again if I remember correctly those Works cars were supposed to be at something like 120Bhp. So that sort of power in a matchbox could not get close to the Opel, a bigger and heavier car, so I don’t believe quoted power until I see the rubber meet the road. Give me a car’s weight and a ¼ mile time – that’s as good a Dyno as you are going to get for comparison purposes. I used to sit at the drags in PE in the old days and calculate the probable bhp of all the cars based on their times and an estimation of their weight. Never got a match to quoted BHP. For me to do that was quite something because I am no mathematician but I remember finding a formula somewhere that seemed to tie up with what I was finding on the Dyno and have lived by that ever since.

** How about this one for you GM guys. Lionels Broadspeed Anglia had lost a piston the week before the Oudtshoorn final in 1974 and he had to borrow the Kadett to compete for the championship. Yes...the Kadett took the championship home on behalf of the Broadspeed and put the Minis back on the trailer to Cape Town, If you know any of the BMC works guys that were there that day find out, its a helluva story.....The Headline "Kadett wins Championship for the Broadspeed" comes to mind.... absolutely true but because it was'nt a Ford Mini or Renault I guess it did not crack the papers at the time.....

More tomorrow P

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Johann65
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Re: CHEV 3800 GT

Post by Johann65 » Wed 02 Mar 2011, 17:39

Hullo Paul,
Your performance figures for the GT is on the nose. I suspect that the HQ Monaro clone I am nearly finished with I hope, is going to give me similar figures. Midvaal Drag is just up the road from me. I have a 3.55 diff, Holden, 305HO Camaro V8 and a 700R4 Autobox (Both 1984)
I also have a 3.36diff to consider. Lot of memories coming back :D

Remember the Blue metalic Opel Fastback with the 6cyl OHC that we had on the bottom floor?
Fitting the Vauxhall 2000 grill and re-shaping the front mudguards?
Bob Notter from Ford coming to visit us and to see how we were progressing?
Member No: 209
Ah! Yes I remember it well! (Only GM's!)
1966 Opel Rekord L CLASSIC SEDAN Current Project

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Re: CHEV 3800 GT

Post by VMX » Wed 02 Mar 2011, 18:12

Cheers for yet another fine lesson in GM theology gospel of the GM purists ! :lol:

It seems that all your projects focused on basics overcoming mass production restrictions and the slide-rule. The gearing for one seems to be as good as you can get it as either way from there it would have compromised either top end or acceleration. For a car that size that's very impressive more so you guys were "improving" the cars not forgetting that with the added performance there had to be a commitment to reliablilty with dealer warranty's etc.

The report on Y151 unfortunately as with just about everything today fine detail is of lesser issue. This you are speaking about is "higher-interest" information, as per school higher-Maths. South Africa is third world so everything is sort of relative the information around the Y151 story for that publication was confined to just that as no longer is their reader base of the sort that would read each line to really know what the legends Willie Meisner, BvR and others were up to out-thinking each other. The stories from behind the scenes are fascinating I've been priviledged to have looked on as two legends chatted to each other about things they were up to 40 odd years ago, that actually only found out just the other day. The Y151 story and what went on around that car just prior and after with the second Y151 and some of their other cars is legends stuff. Sorry this is Ford topics..... :oops:

Speaking of Rodney Goldberg, my very early visits to Killarney I witnessed what I later found out Goldberg tumbling the Mini I remember seeing him and car 180 degress wrong was round wheels facing up. The Broadspeed Anglia story strange my dear Ford-friend has not said a word about this to this day. :lol: :oops: :lol: To give you an idea of just how good you guys were at GM then my dear Ford pal knows more about the Dealer Team exploits that most of the GM followers I've met in other words so dramatic and impressive things were those days at Kempston Road that even a Ford die-hard noticed. :lol:

By the way that Anglia is still in PE with it's 1000cc Holbay motor.

Johan, even if you don't achieve theoretical figures performance wise the sheer joy of driving such a clone nicely engineered is enough. Besides you guys are short of oxygen up there.

993 Kadett
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Re: CHEV 3800 GT

Post by 993 Kadett » Wed 02 Mar 2011, 22:42

Hey El Camino sorry, meant to reply earlier. I left the General in 1977 and my wife and I did a four month trip to the USA (before the kids arrived) where we did 13000 miles. Got back & took up a post at Datsun localising the Datsun range of engines... so crossed the boerewors curtain in 1978 and apart from a 6 year stint in Dubai have been here ever since. Revisiting the old stuff is great & still a GM man at heart... Just to show you the gees is still there... Ran a Lumina Coupe in Dubai (pic attached) Best value performance car on the road bar none, but sombody said the steering wheel was on the wrong side so it had to stay behind. P
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993 Kadett
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Re: CHEV 3800 GT

Post by 993 Kadett » Thu 03 Mar 2011, 10:09

Hi Johann you bring up an interesting point. That blue fastback was the car they used to make the tooling for the Ranger front end using the modified Vauxhall grill you mentioned. The styling guys then bolting the first off-tool parts to a Rekord to make the first Ranger I spoke of in posts. Also something I did not mention and you may remember, is the fact that Rangers were oiginally intended to be marketed as Vauxhalls and the first cars came off the line as Vauxhalls, badges and all. The dealers nearly had a fit. This happened in my early years and I remember reworking cars in the workshop. The car then became known as the GM Ranger....all the marketing and advertising blurb had to be scrapped and redone!
You also mentioned Gordon Briggs and not sure if you know that he passed away last year after a long fight with Cancer. I at least had the opportunity to spend some time with him whilst in PE on a visit early last year. Must say he fought hard and spent days on his bike trying to keep fit while this was happening, that was the type of man he was. That is a story in the Broadspeed Anglia that needs to be told properly. As you know I am not a Ford guy but that car I respected totally and had the opportunity to drive in a race meeting in PE at the redhouse track shortly after Lionel bought it. Let me just tell you that to drive a car with the red line at 10,000rpm was unbelievable. The close ratio 5 speed box allowing rpm to move between 10000 and 8500 during shifts ..... That was the powerband for heaven's sake!
I should also put my spanner in the works for that 1969 season - any body know where all the 1000cc R8 Renault Gordinis they homlogated are buried because I have never seen one, particularly one with a radiator in the front and wheel arches that look like sectioned pixxpots. They must have been built and sold while I was'nt watching.
More later, have good day men....

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Re: CHEV 3800 GT

Post by Johann65 » Thu 03 Mar 2011, 10:23

993 Kadett wrote:Hi Johann you bring up an interesting point. That blue fastback was the car they used to make the tooling for the Ranger front end using the modified Vauxhall grill you mentioned. The styling guys then bolting the first off-tool parts to a Rekord to make the first Ranger I spoke of in posts.
I should also put my spanner in the works for that 1969 season - any body know where all the 1000cc R8 Renault Gordinis they homlogated are buried because I have never seen one, particularly one with a radiator in the front and wheel arches that look like sectioned pixxpots. They must have been built and sold while I was'nt watching. More later, have good day men....
I was part of that design team and sat in the office as you came down from the engineering offices. :D

I suspect that one of those Gordini's is/was in Vanderbijlpark. Recall taking some pics of it. Body was modified to such an extent to reduce body weight that it was not roadworthy for everyday use. Gordini do you have some of the pics I took?
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Ah! Yes I remember it well! (Only GM's!)
1966 Opel Rekord L CLASSIC SEDAN Current Project

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