Classic Race Car History

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CanAm302
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by CanAm302 » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 00:28

72XYGT wrote: Firenza GT,
I see you really have something about "replicas" Why is this so? I think a true enthusiast will, if circumstances allow, go for the real thing. But if it is not within his ability to get the real thing the only next best thing is a replica. I will mention two examples, the AC Cobra and the Ford GT.
If I look at some examples I've seen of Cobra's and Ford GT's then I must admit even though a "kit" car they are nice and build better than the original/genuine ones.
Yes, with the historic racing element taken into account its a different story, but not all enthusiasts will race their cars. Let us as the forum members enjoy those examples, be it the genuine thing or just a replica! :roll:
Now another question, Isnt the Chev SS a replica of the Holden Monaro, or the Fairmont GT a replica of the Falcon GT?
Daan


Hi Daan

My feeling is that an SS or Fairmont GT is not a "clone".
They are rebadged vehicles made by the factory to an idenity that the local market will recognise - purely marketing sense.
Just as an Opel Astra is a Vauxhall is a Holden.
If for example the Astra was designed and built in Australia and you took it to Germany and tried to sell it as a Holden then how many people would buy it/associate with the brand name?
I think what FirenzaGT is trying to get at is the cloning of "notable" cars with historic value - not your pedestrian curb crawler.
As you raise the Monaro and GT as an example, and I am leaping out here on a limb, I assume you know teh heritage of these cars and so a "clone" would be if you tried to sell a 186S Monaro as a Bathurst Monaro or a Falcon500 as a Phase III GT - now that is cloning an something that Australia has been having problems with for a long time but thankfully due to the dedication of enthusiast clubs is on the decline as hopefully buyers get invloved with a club before they make a purchase for that added security of not buying a lemon.
Just my 2c worth
Cheers
:)

swede
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by swede » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 10:55

Yeah. I agree with CanAm302. Otherwise the CanAm would be a Vauxhall-clone (sort of) for us living north of Africa. That wouldnt make much sense would it?
The Chev SS as well as the Monaro are credited, factory built cars with a consecutive chassie numbers, just aimed at different markets. And with that I'm not saying that one-offs can't be judged in the same way as big production number cars, when it comes to originality.
Even a kit car built with pieces from a cirtain period can be considered original if its unmodified at a later date. (I feel I'm in the deep end here with that statement on the kit cars, and its not completely thought through, it might spawn another discussion on originality)

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FairmontGT
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by FairmontGT » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 19:02

For me the clincher in the debate whether it is a replica or the real deal, is whether it was sold through the official dealer network. I have read in many places that this is the criterea. A conversion done on a capri by somebody in 1970 to take a V8 cannot be compared to the official ford version, sold by ford dealers but built by Basil Green. All the cars that are very valueble today conform to this (take Shelbys for an example). The only cars that dont conform are race cars, but also if it was built by a factory backed team it is not far from this criterea.

So no, Fairmont GT's and Chev SS's are not replicas by any means. Not even close.

Regards

Tiaan
Yes we did build muscle cars in RSA!!!!
http://www.africanmusclecars.com

swede
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by swede » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 21:08

Yeah, Fairmont GT, thats one way to look at it and I agree, but theres also the way too look at it that cars that are modified early in its life, by its original owner is to be considered an original, be it the addition of period accessories or major modifications. Difficult defining this it seems.

Im moving this thread to the Replicas and originals -section as I feel Im getting away from the subject.
http://www.africanmusclecars.com/forum/ ... p?f=7&t=74

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ZA Perana
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by ZA Perana » Fri 17 Aug 2007, 21:51

Wow, how this has snowballed! :D Firstly I want to extend to those that read this and feel "scared" to reply, I can assure you Firenza GT and myself wont bite, any comments are more than welcome.

Replica;s I dont have a problem provided they arent passed off as being orginal....thats the end of the story in my opinion.

I feel we are building a pretty interesting argument and what we actually need know is for those involved with the rebuilding of the said car to come to the party to either disprove the argument or validate it. Honestly the said car is stunning, I love seeing it on track.
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zahistorics
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by zahistorics » Sat 18 Aug 2007, 00:02

Ja, just to amplify Jacques comment - we like that car - a lot - we're just very, very curious as to where it came from and what it is made of...

John

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Sat 18 Aug 2007, 09:37

Would it be possible for anyone on the forum that has connection to anyone close to the car to ask them to comment ? It's no big deal by me, I just think this is something that I as a person that some know have been fanatical about these cars of which the Dealer Team cars would be the "holy grail", it would be good if I could inform people that ask me around it's status. Until now I have had to make my own judgement and that may not be right.

What I can say here is that except for some persons that don't seem very knowledged around our heirtage generally, they seem to be the only one's that will emphatically say it is an original Dealer Team car. Not a single person I know that has indepth knowledge many who have lived through the era seem to want to touch the topic or will not commit their opinion as probably a copy. If it is a copy so what. What we need to establish amongst us car fanatics who are the very ones trying to uphold our motoring heritage is a standard of ethics regarding various cars whether they are the real thing or not.

So if this is a copy it does'nt mean we're going to hate it, what needs to happen is that journo's need to pull up their socks abit and take some time to check stuff or do research.
Last edited by Firenza GT on Wed 05 Sep 2007, 22:31, edited 1 time in total.

ant
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by ant » Sat 18 Aug 2007, 14:07

I was alerted to this forum and this particular thread by an enthusiast from Australia.

Although it is encouraging to see the level of interest and enthusiasm that this thread has demonstrated for our Chev Can-Am Race car, I am somewhat surprised at the trait and intent of certain of the posts on this thread.

Firstly I think a word of caution is in order. Everyone who posts on this forum or indeed any other needs to fully understand their obligation to accept full accountability for any statements and or allegations, (no matter how veiled they may appear) that are attributable to them.

Case in point is a recent court decision in the USA, (during last year), where a plaintiff was awarded $300 000 in damages for unsubstantiated comments and allegations which were made on an Alfa Romeo web forum, (not dissimilar to this one in fact!)regarding the provenance and facts surrounding a certain Alfa Romeo TZ historic racer. I cannot speak on behalf of any of the local motoring publications which have been implicated in certain posts on this thread, but I would summise if they, like I are alerted to this thread, they may take more than a passing interest.

Verification and validation of our car as being one of the original "competition vehicles" has been secured from the most reliable sources available to us, i.e. the people that built the cars and the people that raced them in period.
Better than that is difficult for us to achieve at this point.
No factory records or detailed MSA ( Motorsport South Africa) records exist which could add to the validation of this, or indeed any other car from the period.
It is however true that certain specific modifications were made to our car when it was built that is unique to the race cars and not found on any road going version of the Can-Am. This fact was highlighted by the builder of the car during his inspection of the vehicle some years ago. As you certainly could appreciate, this information can not be shared with this forum, or indeed any other public forum.

I am always perturbed by anonymous interaction and refrain from this myself.
Any person who has posted on this thread who is willing to give their full particulars, including their credentials and specific interest in our car, may post me a pm and I certainly would consider sharing more detailed info with them on the provenance of this car.

In addition it is naive and foolish to believe that uncertainty and debate regarding the provenance of historically significant cars is limited to this car, this period or indeed this country and that all international cars are "fully accounted for" as announced on this thread.

There are a multitiude of forums and associations around the world constantly investigating and analysing the provenance of many historic cars. Some of the most heated debates surround Ferraris, Rolls Royce and Bentley. "Barn Finds" still exist, as our car is deemed to be, with a $3m Ferrari recently surfacing in the US after more than 50 years.

I could probably rattle on for hours, but honestly the time, place and conviction doesn't allow for that.

Yours sincerely
Anthony F. Corin

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ZA Perana
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by ZA Perana » Sat 18 Aug 2007, 14:21

ant wrote: I was alerted to this forum and this particular thread by an enthusiast from Australia.

Although it is encouraging to see the level of interest and enthusiasm that this thread has demonstrated for our Chev Can-Am Race car, I am somewhat surprised at the trait and intent of certain of the posts on this thread.

Firstly I think a word of caution is in order. Everyone who posts on this forum or indeed any other needs to fully understand their obligation to accept full accountability for any statements and or allegations, (no matter how veiled they may appear) that are attributable to them.

Case in point is a recent court decision in the USA, (during last year), where a plaintiff was awarded $300 000 in damages for unsubstantiated comments and allegations which were made on an Alfa Romeo web forum, (not dissimilar to this one in fact!)regarding the provenance and facts surrounding a certain Alfa Romeo TZ historic racer. I cannot speak on behalf of any of the local motoring publications which have been implicated in certain posts on this thread, but I would summise if they, like I are alerted to this thread, they may take more than a passing interest.

Verification and validation of our car as being one of the original "competition vehicles" has been secured from the most reliable sources available to us, i.e. the people that built the cars and the people that raced them in period.
Better than that is difficult for us to achieve at this point.
No factory records or detailed MSA ( Motorsport South Africa) records exist which could add to the validation of this, or indeed any other car from the period.
It is however true that certain specific modifications were made to our car when it was built that is unique to the race cars and not found on any road going version of the Can-Am. This fact was highlighted by the builder of the car during his inspection of the vehicle some years ago. As you certainly could appreciate, this information can not be shared with this forum, or indeed any other public forum.

I am always perturbed by anonymous interaction and refrain from this myself.
Any person who has posted on this thread who is willing to give their full particulars, including their credentials and specific interest in our car, may post me a pm and I certainly would consider sharing more detailed info with them on the provenance of this car.

In addition it is naive and foolish to believe that uncertainty and debate regarding the provenance of historically significant cars is limited to this car, this period or indeed this country and that all international cars are "fully accounted for" as announced on this thread.

There are a multitiude of forums and associations around the world constantly investigating and analysing the provenance of many historic cars. Some of the most heated debates surround Ferraris, Rolls Royce and Bentley. "Barn Finds" still exist, as our car is deemed to be, with a $3m Ferrari recently surfacing in the US after more than 50 years.

I could probably rattle on for hours, but honestly the time, place and conviction doesn't allow for that.

Yours sincerely
Anthony F. Corin


Great post, I think at this point I should make my personal position clear, I dont know either way regarding provenance, as you mention the area is vast in the extreme.

However as I race car enthusiast and lover of classic race cars it is a joy to see the Can Am on the track, as you might have read I wasnt around when they raced back in the day so for me its great to see the car on the track, great to get an idea of what it must have been like to see them back in the day.

What does fascinate me is the history of the car between the time it was a Dealer Team car to the time you found it, I personally think its always interesting to know what happened to these cars after their racing career as such finished.

I will be sending you a PM
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Ford Capri Perana V8
Chevy Lumina Supercharged

Wait not for tomorrow to do what can be done today, live each day for one knows not what the next day may hold.

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Sat 18 Aug 2007, 14:48

Very sincere of Anthony to respond.

Would it be possible to indicate as to which of the three it may be ?

By no means saying the car is invalid, may sound as such but I think it is more as a result of "mystery that may have raised suspicion as to it's status. It's a human thing and I for one am certainly not one that cannot make error in judgement. From myside there is no intent to discredit the car at all, I may have my opiniion favourable or not but with respect best kept to myself if derogratory.

Anthony would understand the interest in knowning the status of the car due to it's very high profile in our motoring heritage. Considering the general confusion that go around road originals, be it Perana's, Can Am's Fairmont's etc.
Last edited by Firenza GT on Wed 05 Sep 2007, 22:32, edited 1 time in total.

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