Classic Race Car History

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Thu 10 Jan 2008, 11:53

This morning's Cape Times in the motoring section. Article.

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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by FairmontGT » Thu 10 Jan 2008, 12:02

What does it say Lino? We dont get that paper here!
Yes we did build muscle cars in RSA!!!!
http://www.africanmusclecars.com

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Thu 10 Jan 2008, 17:33

Tiaan I sent you pic of the article can you forward to Daan.

The article is refering to this thread discussion with a bit of a look at the manner in which some cars are being verified or passed as originals. With some comparisons to explain the point about this whole real or not real thing.

Nobody should be angry if it is the case that nobody was maliciously dishonest in their intention. We are discussing cars and the cars we discuss have everything to do with "numbers" and "birth" marks.

It is however evident that these days it's gone beyond just the fact of a car being real or not it's been spoiled by greed amongst other things..

Example: The car in question say for example it was sold as a completed race replica Can Am or a real ex-Dealer Team original. If I was to go buy it as a replica I'd be able to pack a small office type suitcase with 100 rand notes notes to go buy it for 120 000 Rand maybe. As real one I'd have to take a one of those travel suitcases with the wheels to fit in 1 million and 120 thousand Rand in 100 rand notes. So if you look at it that way it's scary this whole thing. There is a difference, there is an issue which for me the most important is the ethics of the whole thing and respect for others that do even have original road cars of sorts. A sort of Can Am cloned Firenza coupe road car may fetch 50 000 Rand. An original maybe 150 000 Rand. Same applies.

The difference here though is that when it involves such a high profile car with racing pedigree it involves so many people of the time, the history they were part of and the fact we have to pay to see the car. And now what about the persons that supposedly verified components of features they thought were unique to the original ? The drivers that may have been quized about this and in a way got tangled in what was not even a road Can Am original ? Besides the money and car status this whole thing involved history which was being revised. For me as a person that has spent hours on the road towing race cars across the country I know what those pit crews went through. That cannot be changed and I feel that must be respected the whole show the drivers and technical crew put on for us to remember for ever.

This car as far as I know was sold for about 25 000 rand from, Cape Town to East London maybe 1993-94 about. Then sold to Jo'burg for 10 000 rand minus motor and box and I'd say a very tired shell where it was converted with flares and things similar to the Dealer Team originals. When I was at Wesbank Classics September 2006 somebody says to me the car is valued at over 1 million rand and that it was "Can Am" number 1 the very first one the main one and all that. And yes that is probably a realistic figure had it been say a real one fully intact today.

So whichever way you take it, both ways there is an issue being of a person being certain when these cars are checked and anounced what they actually are. For me it has nothing to do with money as that's not my hobby. For me it's when many a person has asked me about this specific car as supposedly some guru in this field. I am not. There are people that know just as much if not more that I will ever know. My knowledge is based on just paying a bit of attention through the years, magazines, travelling, hanging around with others that know more than me and some basic common sense. And maybe I have been around a Can Am's for some time so surely I should know something about them and their heritage. ZA Motorsport heritage too. In this case would be the Holy Grail of ZA Motorsport and the Can Am phenonema. That's it.

Check out the committee of the main Classic Car race section at MSA. Remember seeing a vacancy for saloon car authentication. Any takers ?

Historic Motorsport Commission:

Chris Andrew (President)*
Dave Alexander
Brian Askew*
Tubby Bennett
Carl Boshoff
Dickon Daggitt
Jimmy Dewar
Patrick Dunseith*
Rod Green
Peter Lindenberg*
Tony Martin
Steve Pickering *
Dave Richardson*
Adrian Scholtz*
John Simpson
Derick Truscott
Brian Tyler*
Derrick Watterson

* Exco Members

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Fri 11 Jan 2008, 00:55

Cape Times - Motoring - 10.01.2008

heiden
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Joined: Mon 14 Jan 2008, 17:00

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by heiden » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 17:12

I am just an interested on looker but maybe I can offer some input regarding the Chev Can Am story. I can remember an article in Car magazine about 15 years ago where one Richard Dickson ( ex school friend of mine from Bulawayo) was rebuilding a Chev Can Am which was supposed to one of the works cars. The work was being undertaken by a company with a name like Performance Motors and they specialised in V6 conversions for Combis.
Maybe this avenue could be persued.

Ron

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 18:00

heiden wrote: I am just an interested on looker but maybe I can offer some input regarding the Chev Can Am story. I can remember an article in Car magazine about 15 years ago where one Richard Dickson ( ex school friend of mine from Bulawayo) was rebuilding a Chev Can Am which was supposed to one of the works cars. The work was being undertaken by a company with a name like Performance Motors and they specialised in V6 conversions for Combis.
Maybe this avenue could be persued.

Ron


Ron, the story in Car magazine was in 1989 and that indeed a works car the No. 2 car which was originally maroon/white but restored in blue white as the No.1 car originally was back in 1973. If I remember that car had Performance 3000 on the back window which had something to do with the restoration or sponsored part of it. The car was restored by the late Paddy O'Sullivan at his bussiness Mosport in Boksburg. Was Richard not connected somehow to that group at Mosport ? Or maybe work for Rand Air ?

Could have been not long after than in the 90's I took a road Can Am up to Pretoria but that was to JT Conversions. They were doing the Kombi Conversions as well as 3,4 conversions to new V6 Saphires. They at the time were racing one of those 3,4 V6 Ford motors in a Colt Galant at Zwartkops with Interceptor carb set-up. I had heard that this Can Am an original 302 which I drove up to Pretoria was to be made into a race car. I have photo's of it somewhere.

See if you can piece that together.
Lino

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Mon 14 Jan 2008, 19:07

What I can't understand about all this we have debated over time, how can we in ZA be so miss-informed or little knowledged about our own heritage ? I'm refering to the people that should know things but seem rather confused. Or do they know ? How can I know the bit I do and I am a normal fan of motor sport, work on the Railway with NO family history of racing at all ? We specialise in Take Away Cafe's, Fruit Shops, Fish & Chps and home home made wine ......

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Sat 02 Feb 2008, 09:39

In closing regarding the status of this car we discussed, I received a message from one of the owners Peter Lindenberg in which Peter has indicated that there is some discrepancy of sorts which is not our issue somewhere and that the car as now discovered is indeed a replica.

As last words on this what ended up in a controversial topic, I did suggest to the Historic Race Commission that in future some form of public participation be considered in this sort of thing when it comes to vehicle verification especially old race cars. Be it in the form of a buffer period for open comment. Or even finders of old cars to make use of the general public as you can see the sort of information that came out on this thread alone you won’t find in one book nor in a committee’s group.

With this communication medium today (Internet Forums) most stuff can be sorted out. Some just take longer than others. So the phenomena of “vague history” to an extent should not be used as a “benefit of the doubt” thing and then push a thing through. I don’t know if the car was officially verified by the HRC or not but what I do say is that this sort of thing should also be managed by them that focus on Historic’s so that this sort of miss-understanding does not happen and we end up at each other.

Lino

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