Classic Race Car History

User avatar
ZA Perana
Posts: 7306
Joined: Sun 15 Jul 2007, 18:01
Location: Cape Town

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by ZA Perana » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 18:00

Well thats what we need to establish....perhaps this was Jan Hettema's rally car at some stage..... :D I have a picture of 2 of the car, the one in the brown livery, the other in the blue livery, which incidently is a darker blue than this car's. Dont unfortunately have a picture of the SA flag car....imagine how well that colour scheme would go down today!

One wonders if Geoff Mortimer would be able to tell for sure if this was an orginal.....
Alfa GTV 3.0
Ford Capri Perana V8
Chevy Lumina Supercharged

Wait not for tomorrow to do what can be done today, live each day for one knows not what the next day may hold.

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 18:15

Geoff Mortimer would remember things but they have moved on. In a recent Car magazine feature on him there are some small errors which I put down to just this as it being a tiny part of his motorsport involvement almost 40 years ago. It is unfair to expect such legends as Geoff Mortimer and Basil Van Rooyen to remember specifics of many years ago. The Rally car, no, I checked something and it can't be otherise half that shell of this car has been cut apart and rejoined with sections of a Firenza. I had a good look at it not now but when it first rocked up here in Cape Town.

Ok, who rebuilt the car then ? As the decals and things were fresh when first apeared here ? Would a person restore that with some detail then a few races later put all other corporate signage on ? Only now with Anthony involved has some similar era signage re-apeared on the car since Peter focussed on their other cars. But could it have been found so fresh on that Randburg plot abandoned for years ? That's the guy you need to speak to, he should have some pics of the discovered car cos the car changed colour after the Dealer Team days so they were not blue/white or maroon/white by mid seventies. It would not have been found with this Dealer Team type signage on that "Randburg Plot" after all these years such that you just had to hose it down too.
Last edited by Firenza GT on Wed 05 Sep 2007, 22:16, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ZA Perana
Posts: 7306
Joined: Sun 15 Jul 2007, 18:01
Location: Cape Town

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by ZA Perana » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 18:34

Firenza GT wrote: Geoff would remember things but they have moved on. In a recent Car magazine feature on him there are some small errors which I put down to just this as it being a tiny part of his motorsport involvement almost 40 years ago. BvR saw this car a few years ago at Wesbank when he was there. Why then did he not drive the car for the article for Classic car as he did the Mustang Lucky Strike replica which is anounced as just that ? People remember BvR more in the Can Am's than the Mustang. The only comment he made to Seth my friend in Perth is that the flares look right. They did'nt go into detail as it is now also unfair to quote a person that has done so much through the years to remember specifics of many years ago. Flares are no issue, that is easy to get the exact ones that is in fact I van get yhjay easy.

The Rally car, no, I checked something and it can't be otherise half that shell has been cut apart and rejoined with sections of a Firenza. I had a good look at it not now but when it first rocked up here in Cape Town. Ok, who rebuilt the car then as the decals and things were fresh when first apeared here ? Would a person restore that with some detail then a few races later put all other corporate signage on ? Only now with Anthony involved has some similar era signage re-apeared on the car since Peter focussed on their other cars. But could it have been found so fresh on that Randburg plot abandoned for years ? That's the guy you need to speak to, he should have some pics of the discovered car cos the car changed colour after the Dealer Team days so they were not blue/white or maroon/white by mid seventies. It would not have been found with this Dealer Team type signage on that "Randburg Plot" after all these years such that you just had to hose it down too.


The singnage would have changed and I do have pics from around about 1975 of th new singage, which was a lot differant to that used by the Dealer Team. I think this topic is interesting, there is another person in cape town that apparently has a comprehensive photo file on race cars of that era.

Apparently Basil van Rooyen didnt drive the car as it had a technical problem, that was a great article though...

Strange thing and this isnt related, imagine with the right backround what a convincing replica you could built, the Alan Poulter Cortina Perana being a case in point.
Alfa GTV 3.0
Ford Capri Perana V8
Chevy Lumina Supercharged

Wait not for tomorrow to do what can be done today, live each day for one knows not what the next day may hold.

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 19:13

Well without blowing my own trumpet as I believe there are plenty others that could do as good as I can. But I can build a BvR replica to the inch visibly, not now refering to the technical stuff like F1 calipers and other mods etc. But visibly if I fitted those Chevron wheels etc could replicae that car that would confuse the country. But if I did I would put a notice (permanent) that the car is a replica no matter if I have used an original road car as a base which is halfway to planting an urban legend point of fact that can't be proved 20 years on. Anyway does'nt seem like anyone wants to touch this thread. It would be good to clear this. Right now I don't see the point of stressing over having anything original here in ZA. I'll put my thingy on a block to confirm that the white Can Am racing at Killarney presently is an original road Can Am that has been uprated to race. Now then, who's going to plant their thingy on a block about this car we're discussing ?
Last edited by Firenza GT on Wed 05 Sep 2007, 22:17, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TdL351GT
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun 08 Jul 2007, 21:01
Location: Krugersdorp, RSA.

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by TdL351GT » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 20:15

Can it be agreed that a Cortina 1500 GT fitted with a Lotus motor is not a Lotus Cortina ? I mean one done in my backyard or whatever. A V6 Granada fitted with a 302 V8 at Joe's place is not a Granada Perana? Louis Powell's present race Escort is a Meisner Escort copy.


Agreed.

I can live with that. You can only have the genuine, original, real thing…or a replica. There is no such a thing as a genuine/original replica

Luckily my thingy is quite safe as I know too little about these issues. If only everybody would be so honest to put notices on their so called originals we wouldn’t have this debate about authenticity.
There is no replacement for cubic inches....

User avatar
Stealth GT
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun 17 Jun 2007, 17:34
Location: RSA Cape Town

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Stealth GT » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 21:44

Hi to all

Just my 2 cent's here but if you are so sure that the canam is not one of the originals then contact the owner if they are saying that it's an original race car and not a replica then the onus should be on them to prove it .Im sure if the car has been restored then they would have a detailed record of of every process and from what Anthony has written on the Fairmont GT site Im sure he would be willing to shed some light on this issue.

Regarding Historic race cars being neglected this happens all over the world how many legendary American Drag car's , stock car's have been found behind barns .

I agree a genuine car is just that genuine a replica is normally built by someone that is an enthusiast but generally cant find one or afford one
Concerning the white car at Killarney that car is a converted road car ,Ive done the heads on this car for Rick at classic and race car's who maintains this car and another Capri perana race car I see that no one has challenged the status of that car

I think that many people just don't bring their cars out to shows because there is always a so called expert ready to criticise their car

Like I said just my 2 cent's worth

Cheer's Warren

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 22:39

Quite right Warren, however this is not to tackle Anthony at all and from the bit I do know of him is a person of good standing. He did not initially run this car when it first apeared here in 2001 about. I heard myself in the pit after a crowd as usual gathered around the car after a heat, that the car was the "Nols Nieman" car. Ray Emond jumbled about in that sentence too capped by "from East London". No mention of Basil Van Rooyen's car. Not Anthony, he was'nt there at all. The car can only be one of three. Your input is valuable by the way no matter what. 1. The Basil Van Rooyen No.1 car. 2. The "guest driver" No.2 car. 3. The ZA flag coloured built especially for the Springbok Series car. That's it, if it's the "4th" car then it's something else besides the original Dealer Team cars.

The white Can Am here indeed is a road car as I saw it when it arrived from Jo'burg. He has improved that car from what was struggling at the back on it's narrow 175x13 tyres on standard rims to a front runner and that is no easy feat. People have no idea how slow a standard original Can Am is a round a circuit. Not just a Can Am, many other cars we think is fast. Anyway very pleased the wheel-off's did'nt end in a tragedy.

The Gunston Capri by Rick I think has been properly reported on in Wiel or Drive magazine some time ago with people references, places and times. Resurected from Rhodesia and all that and the level of restoration that went down there was outstanding. That in my opinion is the most complete of significance ZA special in existance. Unless not sure how the Meisner Escort is doing as they are busy with that at the moment. The A2 Gunston car was traced from Windsor Garage (Koos Swannepoel) livery to when it went to Rhodesia to when it was brought back and restored here before sold to Graeme Rooke. It's clear with references and image history.

This forum is not to pull anyone or thing down, it in fact if this car can be authenticated enhance it's importance and the information that is contriobuted by various members is invaluable so as to authenticate it. In my opinion this should not be difficult, by now we should have had a 1, 2 or 3, it's one of them, which one ? When we establish which one then we scratch there till we prove it is indeed that one or if it is just the bootlid of one of the three original cars. If this thread ends in a dead end well then so be it. No, 1, 2 or 3 ? Which one ? Look, I have a Capri V8 here and it has at least 80% Perana components. It has had rear discs of sorts fitted at the rear. It has other mag rims. It has a normal Capri steering wheel. It does not have a Perana Vin. tag. It drives like one, feels just like one, looks just like one but is it one? The moment I insist it is one I'll have a troop of people telling me it's not and underming the originals right ? In respect of those that have Capri Perana's I even tell the average person that would not know it is not an original Perana. It is a very good clone.
Last edited by Firenza GT on Wed 05 Sep 2007, 22:17, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TdL351GT
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun 08 Jul 2007, 21:01
Location: Krugersdorp, RSA.

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by TdL351GT » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 14:26

Now then, who's going to plant their thingy on a block about this car we're discussing ?

I think that many people just don't bring their cars out to shows because there is always a so called expert ready to criticise their car


Very true Warren..It is also one of the reasons I have never posted any pics of my Cortina Perana, or show the car, because of the “fake ID Plate” issue. I am very glad that is sorted out. Will post pics soon.

Firenza, it is very clear that you guys have done your homework thoroughly and really know the Can Am inside out…but don’t you think you are overstressing the point here. I can understand the need to know for you fundis to exactly find out what happened to the original dealer team race cars, but for the normal car lover like me…I am just grateful to see another Can Am (and a good one at that) back on the racetrack. Same with the Perana’s.
I also feel the forum is exactly the place for uneducated people like myself to test any hearsay or theories even if it is not the real truth. Don’t want to feel like I have to do some research before saying something..,because it is on the forum that everything is sorted, corrected and where we then learn. But I don’t want to live in fear that I’m going to get crucified or having something chopped off when testing theories or hearsay. Surely we want to encourage people to participate and not scare them for saying something wrong or stupid.
Good judgment comes from experience...and experience comes from bad judgements

regards

Theuns
There is no replacement for cubic inches....

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 19:37

351 I hear you I had the same dillema with regards the plate and fortunately only parted with mine giving it to my one brother rather than selling for nothing as a fake some month's ago. The manner in which it was posted that caused paranoia. Buyers and sellers. Others sold their cars as a result and some turned away from genuine deals. Such is the power of miss-information. It can take a cars price from say 100 000 for a real Capri Perana to 30 000 for a suspect copy when in fact it is real. Equally the other way round and the buyer sits with the dillema of paying 100K for what is not.

With regards the Firenza lets focus on the car. Nobody is threatening anyone here unlike the plate Perana debacle, we are discussing detailed motoring issues which we are all passionate about. Hence the difference between this forum of enthiusiasts and bar fodder. Isssue is, is the car, real one or a copy? In my opinion the Dealer Team cars are one of the most famous bit of ZA history there is. Never mind for now the Firenza 2,5 that Bob Thomas actually won the 1973 championship in, or the Firenza 2,5 GT that won the 1973 National Rally Championship and Roof of Africa Rally. The Can Am's won every single race overall between the two thus sharing class A points. That is how relevent they are in our ZA history the manner in which they hit the circuits three-wheeling, two-wheeling around the circuits. Surely we should be able to say this "remaining" original went there, raced here, sold there, motor lost here, "Gapstroker fitted here (1st time heard that term), these remains were found, bought there and so on. Then landed on a plot in Randburg. Then suddenly it apeared at Killarney some years ago at the Piper races in the No 1 Dealer Team car livery.

My friends abroad that have original Can Am's would be pleased to know the images I often send them are of the actual car. If it is a copy that is fine too. For me with a reasonable knowledge of these cars, I still cannot with asurance confirm this. I can confirm the ex-Dealer Team car the late Paddy O'Sullivan restored was real. I travelled twice to Zwarkops from Cape Town to go see it so as to make sure. Yes it was the car although that cars pedigree was clearly documented from it's Dealer Team days to the late eighties when it was restored by Paddy. I had also seen this same ex-Dealer Team Can Am in 1980 in the Kyalami paddock. It was entered in the Castrol Clubmans race. This was confimrmed in the Car magazine article in which the owner at the time is noted in the programme I still have for that day.

This car in question now I have travelled twice to Zwartkops and once to Wesbank from Cape Town to watch which something close to 10 000km of travel so is my interest in the Firenza/Can Am legacy.

We've just gone off the point. Which number can it be? 1st, 2nd or 3rd ex-Chev Dealer Team car? We can after establishing this take the discussion to the next level be it confirming remaining pieces of it or a replica of original cars. Or somebody out there knows beyond my knowledge and archive something that can contribute to the thus far "myterious" and sudden re-incarnation of this car from a plot in Randburg. This will also help inform many people that have asked me with regards the cars status who would like to know be it real or a clone. If it's a clone fine I'll still travel miles to see it race.
Last edited by Firenza GT on Wed 05 Sep 2007, 22:18, edited 1 time in total.

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 19:46

Most impressive practical un-modified muscle car driven:FAIRMONT GT
Last edited by Firenza GT on Wed 05 Sep 2007, 22:21, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Social Media

     

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests