Classic Race Car History

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Stealth GT
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Stealth GT » Wed 15 Aug 2007, 22:10

Hi to all
Ok am I reading correctly according to your conclusion this car is a fake and that we as the motoring public are being conned here are you sure of the facts thats a bold statement

Cheer's Warren

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Stealth GT
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Stealth GT » Wed 15 Aug 2007, 22:13

So it seems that all three cars ar no more. My conclusion: The car at the top of this thread is not one of the three originals.

John[/quote]

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Wed 15 Aug 2007, 23:06

Lets go easy on this, lets not call it a fake or replica until substantial factual evidence is presented to authenticate it. I have checked various things I look on any Can Am I have been asked to look at as a first line check and something does not fit. The part that does not fit is the vague history of such a prominent car and how it turned up. Two were broken up long-long ago for the Manufacturers Challenge Chevairs. How much of this car could then be of either ? East London, Nols Nieman, Dave Emond are names and places thrown in a hat at Killarney pits when it first apeared here by the driver when asked by a crowd that gathered around the car. In Car magazine (April 07) we now read a "Plot in Randburg". How was it discovered ? Complete as we saw it at Killarney some years ago soon after discovered ? Who fitted all that tubing that stretches right through the car " "Gapstroker" motor, not sure what that is but was this car then not run at some stage with Gapstoker etc and in it's livery before it was discovered on a Randburg plot ?

There are many questions and if we can just begin at one for starters. Which of the three cars is this ? 1. The Basil Van Rooyen car ? 2. The "Guest Driver" car ? 3. ZA flag livery car (run later by Des Ally)?

If we can establish which one it is or which part of the three it carries then we're making progress. For us a few years down the line and nobody I have spoken to can say which of the three it is, I think that's appaling for a car crazy nation as we are.

The two famous Dealer Team Firenza's in UK are absolutely sure. There were "three" main ones like us. Howver the one "Old Nail" had a facelift from "flatnose" to "Snoot" nose job and you don't hear of two "Old Nails" running around. So the car had two guises but there is only one ""Old Nail" and no other "original" which would have to be a flatnose version that surfaced in some barn. There is however a road early look "flatnose" (double headlight grill) version of Old Nail running on the road belonging to one of our clubmembers that is more acurate in detail to Old Nail than the car here in question is to any of the three original Chev Dealer Team cars. It is anounced as a Replica and not of a "roadworthied" ex Dealer Team Vauxhall. And that is absolutely fine, a confirmed and anounced proud replica of the early look "Old Nail" Firenza Dealer Team car.

So then there was one Dealer Team Firenza "Old Nail" with two looks and it today is in a museum with it's last look but the same car as the flatfront days which was the grill with double lights. Then there is "Baby Bertha", the V8 follow on of the 2300/2500/2600 engined "Old Nail" which was space frame with Firenza body and snoot nose like "Old Nail". (Snoot Nose is from the High Performance 2300 Firenza's of which 204 were built). So there are just two original Dealer Team Vauxhalls acounted for from inception to present in a mueseum.

Our "Little Chev's were equally as famous yet we can hardly establish which of the "two" this is as it cannot be the Paddy O' Sullivan restored one featured in a 1989 Car magazine write-up. So then, it's now narrowed to two, which of the two can it be ? This is not a personal thing, it is a motoring discussion we are discussing to establish some sort of ethics amongst us. It is very important that we do know and be it a copy so what ? There's no need to be embarrased by that. The embarrassment now may be to have to reverse what has been put in print already if indeed the car in question cannot be authenticated as an original. In no way do I say it is a fake or copy nor acuse Anthony of misleading us. Maybe Anthony has been mislead should it end up that the car is in fact a copy of the original.
Last edited by Firenza GT on Wed 05 Sep 2007, 22:28, edited 2 times in total.

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vanz2
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by vanz2 » Wed 15 Aug 2007, 23:07

Is this the original ?

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Wed 15 Aug 2007, 23:31

We are trying to establish that for peace of mind, especially those that have surviving original road Can Am's. So far it seems between possibly two of the three that it could be.
Last edited by Firenza GT on Wed 05 Sep 2007, 22:29, edited 1 time in total.

swede
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by swede » Thu 16 Aug 2007, 11:31

Hi All!

I have been following this discussion from Europe and I find it very interesting!
What I don’t really understand and the thing that this whole discussion centers around is the fact that a car with that kind of history just shows up with no proof of its heritage attached. I mean; coming across an original, abandoned race CanAm in some yard would be like finding the holy grail. As soon as it was secured by a new owner it would be shown and had to be autenticated. It would of course, on the other hand, be fun for the owner to just show up with it restored and then read the speculations on the forums…

Lets assume that one of the broken up original race cars hadnt been badly butchered and that most of the original parts could be tracked down and put back together, then the car would be the real thing –But which car is it? More than one of you guys would have to know. After all: It is the holy grail!

Firenza GT

Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by Firenza GT » Thu 16 Aug 2007, 12:42

Just a note with regards specific features. The most prominent Can Am race car item on this car are the flares. So where did they come from if this car is a copy ? If my memory serves me when the late Paddy O'Sullivan rebuilt the one original Dealer Team car I think it was noted that they had to repair/fix the flares that had years of damage on the car he restored. Hence there may have been moulds made at the time which may be floating around where ever and hence such a set of flares can be made. Flares are not a problem to get, I had a set of moulds for such specific flares too.

Other items like the bonnet, aerofoil etc which are the only things specific the the cars have been available as road cars have been scrapped. A 302 Z-28 motor, Muncie etc you can buy on eBay. Even the proper Chevron style wheels which two of the original Race cars had, this stuff is all available at a price of course. I am not saying this is the case with this car but rather a simple explaination around this if one wonders how it is possible to build a replica.
Last edited by Firenza GT on Wed 05 Sep 2007, 22:29, edited 1 time in total.

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TdL351GT
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by TdL351GT » Thu 16 Aug 2007, 20:40

Just some pics I took of this car in question. I really hope that we will get to the bottom of this. Tell you this though, this car is getting a lot of attention/publicity due to this uncertainty.

regards

Theuns
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zahistorics
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by zahistorics » Thu 16 Aug 2007, 20:51

Stealth GT: In am deliberately avoiding any strong language like 'fake' here. That approach just polarises people and gets us nowhere (that's not a dig at you - just what I think).

I'm just stating what I belive to be true - as I have read, or been told by a number of people I trust. My standard is like the BBC - I must have at least two sources before I think I have a fact.......

We are trying to work out what this car is. Maybe it actually has bits of one of the three originals. That would be cool. I'm with swede on this - we like looking for 'holy grails'. Even an car with authentic pieces of a broken up 'holy grail' would be a wonderful thing. Hey even a replica is good see my Replicas and Originals post http://www.africanmusclecars.com/forum/ ... p?f=7&t=74.

And I am totally with Firenza GT - we have an amazing motoring history and heritage in ZA and loads of passion for it - lets preserve it and document it like the British, for example, do.

I have seen and heard amazing wonderful stuff in my recent visits to SA. Lets work together to gather this knowledge up so we can share it with pride.

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zahistorics
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Re: Classic Race Car History

Post by zahistorics » Thu 16 Aug 2007, 21:03

Just read Theuns's post:

Yep that's the wonderful thing about these forums - publicity gets people interested and talking and writing - out of that can only come good. Even if we learn nothing new about cars we might make a few friends along the way.

Young men and woman will ask their Moms and Dads and Ooms and Tannies and Oumas and Oupas about these cars - they will want to know about them and possibly own them. Look at Jacques - he wasn't even born in the Perana/CanAm era but is totally and completely passionate about these old motors.

Us old geezers can wallow in nostalgia - were were awestruck laatjies then back in the day. We could only dream then - now if we try just a bit we can own the dream.

Suddenly in the last few weeks debate and discussion has finally got some forums in SA going. Keep at it. Be Nice Let's go for it. :D

John

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